Back at you my friend. I've been working on a particularly tricky section of my diss today, and I've thought more than once it would be so wonderful to wander down to Harrogate's office and bounce some ideas off of him.
Yes! Perfect for people who think that all information about life comes from school. I needed one that says "Pregnant at 19 in Spite of Sex Ed"! And one that says "Dr. Hadababyoutofwedlock"
literacy-chic, the staunch opposition to sex education is something Harrogate has never understood. Perhaps you could enlighten us about it?
At times it does seem like the goal of some is intensely about subverting reality and putting an end to teen or out of wedlock sex in the United States.
I'm not opposed to sex ed. At all. I just don't think that the target demographic that sex ed really informs about pregnancy is the same demographic represented by middle class children of devout Christian (WASP, Evalngelical, etc.) parents. I would suspect that the populations that see a dramatic decrease in pregnancy rates because of sex ed are impoverished, inner-city populations that have more urban legends than information circulating about pregnancy.
On the other hand, I think there are a number of factors as to why teens become pregnant, and misinformation or lack of information doesn't even begin to explain them.
As far as religious instruction and sexual morality, I don't really think parents should expect the public schools to provide that. Parents who want their children shielded from EVERYTHING are delusional. I will say that abstinence is perhaps not stressed enough as the only FOOLPROOF method of pregnancy avoidance, but that's a different matter. I am also very skeptical that "abstinence-only" curricula--curricula that deny the existence of ANY contraception--really exist. At least, in this society. That is tantamount to having history texts that deny the moon landing, or show the existence of horses in North America prior to European explorers. Let's face it--condoms are everywhere.
For the record, I think MORE info should be taught about female fertility, not less!
On the other hand, I'm kind of a poster child for "knew about it; did it anyway." *shrug* Had the baby. Married the father. (In that order.) Lived life anyway! Woohoo!
I wouldn't have brought any of this up, but there are some underlying assumptions that I think are glossed over by the pithy t-shirt approach to argument.
Well, Literary Chic, you certainly can have such a t-shirt made. . .
Seriously though, nothing is perfect. Teenagers are going to have unprotected sex even if they receive sex ed in the schools and in their homes. And, unfortunately, teens are going to get pregnant and have to face the responsibility of becoming parents well before they are prepared to. But in the past 8 years, since abstinence only education has been put in place in many states, the teen pregnancy rate has started to rise--after a 20-plus year decline. Clearly, something isn't working with this policy.
We are in agreement. In his more lucid moments Harrogate allows himself to hope that reports of Abstinence ONLY curricula are greatly exaggerated.
But there are too many politicians out there who use the Rhetoric of Abstinence ONLY, who tether AIDS relief funding overseas to Abstinence ONLY, &c. Harrogate worries about the reality level of such politics.
Your personal testimony, too--which, by the way, thank you for sharing with us in that way-- is probably true of the majority--hard to believe that there are too many teenagers out there in America who just don't know about contraceptives. Many, as you put it, do indeed just do it anyway.
But we ought to always worry about access to contraceptives, and about accurate information being out there, wouldn't you agree? It seems you do, with your comment about fertility.
Hopefully you will keep coming back. Very good to have different perspectives.
But in the past 8 years, since abstinence only education has been put in place in many states, the teen pregnancy rate has started to rise--after a 20-plus year decline.
I think there is a change in attitude toward pregnancy and children by the younger generations (younger than us) that bears examination... Anyway, there are so many factors that I hesitate to believe that this is the ONLY relevant factor.
In my defense (or not) I was also a 19-year-old college senior...
Access to accurate information is definitely important. I don't necessarily think we have to talk about sexuality to teens in a way that promotes teen sexuality, whatever the reality of the situation might be. People are often confused about this, I think.
I promise to stop by sporadically, and then more often after the election, as political issues don't always bring out the nicer sides of our natures! :)
I also don't think it is the responsibility of schools to teach morality, but then I don't see that teaching sex education and about contraception is a moral issue.
Exactly my point. Teaching INFORMATION is not moral or immoral in itself. It is to what use that information is put. Sex and contraception ARE moral questions for a lot of parents, who need to be aware of what their children are learning and provide the frameworks that they consider appropriate to their family's beliefs. Not the responsibility of the schools. Unless the school is chosen by the parents for the reinforcement of those beliefs. Even so--facts about sex don't negate religious belief, and vice versa.
When I said that I don't really think parents should expect the public schools to provide for religious instruction and sexual morality, I meant the point to be in opposition to those who oppose sex ed. Sorry if that was unclear.
Hi everyone, I went to an all-girls Catholic High School that not only tried to teach us morals, it also taught us about various forms of contraception. It Promoted Abstinence, but in sex ed, we learned everything. Every Thing. My senior class had more pregnancies than any other class before or since.
Do I think that is a fault of our education? Not at all. Do I think it a problem of understanding sex as having far-reaching consequences? Absolutely.
This Humble Author blushes to speak so bluntly, but sometimes (just sometimes!) blunt is the way to go. Ciao, Amy
Let me offer up this nugget of perceived wisdom: Everyone I have ever known has been sure that their city/state/county/school/year was the most pregnant.
Not "second-most", not just "largely." Everyone I've ever talked to about this is certain that they are the moral lesson by which all other competitors fail.
And what you have is this resolute statement of pride: "We blew it! Or should have."
I am fairly sure that this is one of those polite social lies-- like "everyone's vote counts," "soon cigarettes will be too expensive," "Milwaukee's Best," and "the brie is still good"-- that hold us together.
That or the disproportionate amount of "defective condoms" and "semesters abroad" which my school faced in 1993 somehow...ahem...humped west to Dr. Reads' school in 1994 like Yeats' rough beast ready to be tabulated.
Hi Roof Almighty (or, as I like to call him, Mr. Reads), I am not claiming that my senior class was The Most Pregnant Ever. I am simply stating the fact that for My Particular High School, my senior class had the most pregnancies before or since. That is all. You always accuse me of dramatic exaggeration... Ciao, Amy
I'm just forwarding my theory that this is an immediate side-effect of the "this is the worst generation ever" bluster of the aging and the aged.
Not only is this the worst generation, but this state is the worst in the nation, this city in the state, this bank of the river, this school district, this school, this year, this class, third row. Veronica, put your knees together, you're drawing eyes.
I know that you claim to have seen documentation "from-ma da Pope-ah" to prove the (shall we say) "silent lucidity" of the girls who graduated with you (or went upstate to live on a farm and chase sheep, I suppose).
However, I also was told when I was a student, and again when I returned to teach summer school years later, that MY highschool, MY district, and MY Parish were the preg-ignorant (the most pregnateriffic!)from 1989-1993. If your school "WON" in 1994, either a) its a lie that we all heard (including my ex- who had two kids in high school in a different part of the state) b) you really pulled it off in the last quarter, or c) the mythical Wandering 24-Year Old Guy rambled down the tracks, http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/pregnancy-pact-principal-stands-firm/
seeking freedom and maybe... salvation?
Look, there he goes now. Maybe heading to your child's school!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUWgE0EVQ9c
18 comments:
Awesome! Miss ya like the (not Charles)Dickens, M!
Back at you my friend. I've been working on a particularly tricky section of my diss today, and I've thought more than once it would be so wonderful to wander down to Harrogate's office and bounce some ideas off of him.
Sadly tis not the same, but always feel free to bounce away, by phone or by email.
These shirts should be modeled by pregnant teenagers.
Yes! Perfect for people who think that all information about life comes from school. I needed one that says "Pregnant at 19 in Spite of Sex Ed"! And one that says "Dr. Hadababyoutofwedlock"
literacy-chic, the staunch opposition to sex education is something Harrogate has never understood. Perhaps you could enlighten us about it?
At times it does seem like the goal of some is intensely about subverting reality and putting an end to teen or out of wedlock sex in the United States.
I'm not opposed to sex ed. At all. I just don't think that the target demographic that sex ed really informs about pregnancy is the same demographic represented by middle class children of devout Christian (WASP, Evalngelical, etc.) parents. I would suspect that the populations that see a dramatic decrease in pregnancy rates because of sex ed are impoverished, inner-city populations that have more urban legends than information circulating about pregnancy.
On the other hand, I think there are a number of factors as to why teens become pregnant, and misinformation or lack of information doesn't even begin to explain them.
As far as religious instruction and sexual morality, I don't really think parents should expect the public schools to provide that. Parents who want their children shielded from EVERYTHING are delusional. I will say that abstinence is perhaps not stressed enough as the only FOOLPROOF method of pregnancy avoidance, but that's a different matter. I am also very skeptical that "abstinence-only" curricula--curricula that deny the existence of ANY contraception--really exist. At least, in this society. That is tantamount to having history texts that deny the moon landing, or show the existence of horses in North America prior to European explorers. Let's face it--condoms are everywhere.
For the record, I think MORE info should be taught about female fertility, not less!
On the other hand, I'm kind of a poster child for "knew about it; did it anyway." *shrug* Had the baby. Married the father. (In that order.) Lived life anyway! Woohoo!
I wouldn't have brought any of this up, but there are some underlying assumptions that I think are glossed over by the pithy t-shirt approach to argument.
Well, Literary Chic, you certainly can have such a t-shirt made. . .
Seriously though, nothing is perfect. Teenagers are going to have unprotected sex even if they receive sex ed in the schools and in their homes. And, unfortunately, teens are going to get pregnant and have to face the responsibility of becoming parents well before they are prepared to. But in the past 8 years, since abstinence only education has been put in place in many states, the teen pregnancy rate has started to rise--after a 20-plus year decline. Clearly, something isn't working with this policy.
literacy-chic:
We are in agreement. In his more lucid moments Harrogate allows himself to hope that reports of Abstinence ONLY curricula are greatly exaggerated.
But there are too many politicians out there who use the Rhetoric of Abstinence ONLY, who tether AIDS relief funding overseas to Abstinence ONLY, &c. Harrogate worries about the reality level of such politics.
Your personal testimony, too--which, by the way, thank you for sharing with us in that way-- is probably true of the majority--hard to believe that there are too many teenagers out there in America who just don't know about contraceptives. Many, as you put it, do indeed just do it anyway.
But we ought to always worry about access to contraceptives, and about accurate information being out there, wouldn't you agree? It seems you do, with your comment about fertility.
Hopefully you will keep coming back. Very good to have different perspectives.
But in the past 8 years, since abstinence only education has been put in place in many states, the teen pregnancy rate has started to rise--after a 20-plus year decline.
I think there is a change in attitude toward pregnancy and children by the younger generations (younger than us) that bears examination... Anyway, there are so many factors that I hesitate to believe that this is the ONLY relevant factor.
In my defense (or not) I was also a 19-year-old college senior...
Access to accurate information is definitely important. I don't necessarily think we have to talk about sexuality to teens in a way that promotes teen sexuality, whatever the reality of the situation might be. People are often confused about this, I think.
I promise to stop by sporadically, and then more often after the election, as political issues don't always bring out the nicer sides of our natures! :)
I also don't think it is the responsibility of schools to teach morality, but then I don't see that teaching sex education and about contraception is a moral issue.
Exactly my point. Teaching INFORMATION is not moral or immoral in itself. It is to what use that information is put. Sex and contraception ARE moral questions for a lot of parents, who need to be aware of what their children are learning and provide the frameworks that they consider appropriate to their family's beliefs. Not the responsibility of the schools. Unless the school is chosen by the parents for the reinforcement of those beliefs. Even so--facts about sex don't negate religious belief, and vice versa.
When I said that I don't really think parents should expect the public schools to provide for religious instruction and sexual morality, I meant the point to be in opposition to those who oppose sex ed. Sorry if that was unclear.
Hi everyone,
I went to an all-girls Catholic High School that not only tried to teach us morals, it also taught us about various forms of contraception. It Promoted Abstinence, but in sex ed, we learned everything. Every Thing.
My senior class had more pregnancies than any other class before or since.
Do I think that is a fault of our education? Not at all. Do I think it a problem of understanding sex as having far-reaching consequences? Absolutely.
This Humble Author blushes to speak so bluntly, but sometimes (just sometimes!) blunt is the way to go.
Ciao,
Amy
Let me offer up this nugget of perceived wisdom: Everyone I have ever known has been sure that their city/state/county/school/year was the most pregnant.
Not "second-most", not just "largely." Everyone I've ever talked to about this is certain that they are the moral lesson by which all other competitors fail.
And what you have is this resolute statement of pride: "We blew it! Or should have."
I am fairly sure that this is one of those polite social lies-- like "everyone's vote counts," "soon cigarettes will be too expensive," "Milwaukee's Best," and "the brie is still good"-- that hold us together.
That or the disproportionate amount of "defective condoms" and "semesters abroad" which my school faced in 1993 somehow...ahem...humped west to Dr. Reads' school in 1994 like Yeats' rough beast ready to be tabulated.
Hi Roof Almighty (or, as I like to call him, Mr. Reads),
I am not claiming that my senior class was The Most Pregnant Ever. I am simply stating the fact that for My Particular High School, my senior class had the most pregnancies before or since.
That is all.
You always accuse me of dramatic exaggeration...
Ciao,
Amy
"Always?"
Really?
I'm just forwarding my theory that this is an immediate side-effect of the "this is the worst generation ever" bluster of the aging and the aged.
Not only is this the worst generation, but this state is the worst in the nation, this city in the state, this bank of the river, this school district, this school, this year, this class, third row. Veronica, put your knees together, you're drawing eyes.
I know that you claim to have seen documentation "from-ma da Pope-ah" to prove the (shall we say) "silent lucidity" of the girls who graduated with you (or went upstate to live on a farm and chase sheep, I suppose).
However, I also was told when I was a student, and again when I returned to teach summer school years later, that MY highschool, MY district, and MY Parish were the preg-ignorant (the most pregnateriffic!)from 1989-1993. If your school "WON" in 1994, either
a) its a lie that we all heard (including my ex- who had two kids in high school in a different part of the state)
b) you really pulled it off in the last quarter, or
c) the mythical Wandering 24-Year Old Guy rambled down the tracks, http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/pregnancy-pact-principal-stands-firm/
seeking freedom and maybe... salvation?
Look, there he goes now. Maybe heading to your child's school!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUWgE0EVQ9c
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